Clem Banks Interview: Corey Mason
July 2021
As a curator from Marfa, Texas, Clem Banks brings a gritty narrative to the art world conversation. Clem sat down with Mason in his studio in Raleigh, North Carolina to discuss his new work being described as shape paintings.
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Clem Banks: I’ve heard from people inside the circle that you’ve always had a bit of an erratic approach to your art? How do you feel about that critic?
Mason: Is there a “right” way to approach art making. The people can say whatever they want, it’s them to know what they want to know. Go ahead and look at the artist that found one thing they like doing and do it over and over again until they die. Sounds really interesting to me. meh. I think it’s more interesting to not get bored.
Banks: Why do you think many blue chip artists tend to find a way of making art and stick to it? Do you know what I’m talking about?
Mason: Give me an example.
Banks: Well, for example look at Mark Grotjahn, he has largely been doing these gesturally geometric paintings for quite some time. He has found ways to continue the practice by find new problems to solve within the same general path of or style, if you want to use that word. Perhaps the opposite of this general approach might be someone like Richard Prince whose work is seen as diverse - take his Marlborough Series and compare it to his Hippie Drawings. Does this make sense?
Mason: Nothing should make sense. If it makes sense it’s not interesting anymore. Anyways, what does it mean to have one way of making art or one style. Who made the rules anyway? Is Mark Grotjahn better than Richard Prince? Is Donald Judd better than David Hockney. Cy Twombly did the same thing for a long time and no REALLY gave a shit till he was older. It’s not about style or sticking to a “thing”. People want to understand something and if it fits into the box they can understand then it’s ok. Ignoring all this and not getting bored are more important. And hell, end the end that’s inspiring.
Banks: In recent years, according to some critics and galleries, figurative painting has seemed to garner more appeal with collectors. Do you agree?
Mason: I’m not sure figurative painting ever lost its appeal. Anyway, I don’t really know who any of these collectors are. I’m just getting to know the art world and I think I’ve seen enough. You know I live here in Raleigh, North Carolina - it’s an easy place to live - I live within a mile of everything I need. But it’s not exactly the epicenter of creativity let along the art market. So I’m a bit removed from the conversation I would say. I sort of like it that way. I’ve really been thinking a lot lately about how “cloudy” most people’s minds are. Before the world shut down last year I would say I wouldn’t have known what it meant to have a cloudy brain. But it seems I’ve woken up a little bit. I have more time and space to think, to understand what’s going on around me. It’s not about a schedule or the calendar anymore. But yeah, figurative painting is what you were asking about. I like it. When I first started to make art I actually started out making watercolor pictures. Many of them were people. Figurative painting will always be with us – we’re social creatures. We love people and especially other people. For lots of reasons figurative painting is important.
Banks: So how do you feel about your leaf paintings within this context of the figurative movement?
Mason: I don’t really call them leaf paintings anymore. They are shape paintings. When I was a landscape architect and beginning to paint I felt like the work needed to relate back to my background somehow. Or somehow this would make the work more meaningful and connect the story about “who” I am. So I thought the leaf motif would somehow relate to the landscape component of my background. Guess what, no one cares. I certainly didn’t - I thought someone else did. Dumb ideas find a way to die.
Banks: What about the context of figurative painting and these shape paintings? You might have answered my question but do you have any additional things to say about how the shape paintings aren’t fitting in with the perceived figurative movement?
Mason: Have you ever invested in the markets?
Banks: You mean the stock market?
Mason: Yeah.
Banks: Yes, but not in a meaningful way. I’d consider myself more of an art market investor. (chuckle)
Mason: There’s a technique for trading called MSA, Momentum Statistical Analysis. Big fancy few words. It’s basically using data and momentum statistics to help break down the supply and demand of a stock. I’m not an expert and won’t pretend to know exactly what I’m talking about here but what I do know is there are signals and signs that happen before the actual price movement and obviously this can be helpful to someone who wants to know where the hockey puck is going so to speak. Does anybody really care what’s happening right now? Artists don’t care what the movement is unless they want to make money. Investors care. So what you’re really asking is am I an Artist that cares about making money. We all need money, same with the rich. I like the word momentum. It implies energy and forward motion. The pendulum always swings doesn’t it? I’m sure it will.
Banks: I know you’ve done some figurative work in the past however recently there seems to be a serious concentration on these shape paintings. You had originally done these shape paintings for the first time, I believe back in 2017, and seem to have re-visited them. Why now, and why have you come back to it?
Mason: I wanted to make them. I’m only interested in making something that I want to look at. I think it might have been Donald Judd that said something like this but I’m not interested in making art that stands for the thing I want to look at, only the thing I want to look at. Shapes and architecture will always have a relationship and I’m interested in that intersection. I want to look at that.
Banks: Was it something specific that made you want to make them?
Mason: Painting shows have always been painting shows. What happens if you REMOVE painting from a painting and still have it be a painting? You know, let the materials do the work. Materials, Color, Size. I’m interested in the answer. Artists are problem solvers. I feel like I’m on the right track.
Banks: How do you remove painting from a painting?
Mason: Early cave art aren’t really paintings are they? I mean comon, not in the modern sense of the word painting. I’m not going to get into the art expert territory of how these were made and what the intentions were. It’s none of my business. But on the surface they don’t seem to exist in the same way many paintings in the galleries and museums exist. There is something different about them. They don’t pretend to be something else. They are very simple and honest. It’s some sort of ordinary naturalism. The hand and pigment working together on a surface. The surface isn’t loaded up with goodies. I don’t know the right way to describe it, unless it’s… (pause)
Rubens painted paintings, what if he removed painting from his work; what would it look like? Perhaps it would be a shape painting.
Banks: Collectors might have a problem with this approach. Not to say they wouldn’t collect as a result of this description of painting but don’t you agree this is potentially in the category of “defying gravity?”
Mason: I can’t help it if someone thinks something can’t be done.
Banks: You mean call a painting a painting?
Mason: If you mean you want me to call my work paintings, yes, they are paintings. What’s the big deal. Why wouldn’t I call them paintings? I don’t see an issue with other people’s sympathies to find a category and put things there. I don’t think they need to be and I sure as hell don’t want them to be.
Banks: Then what are they?
Mason: I prefer drawings over paintings. But I get it the market doesn’t really like drawings. It’s the bullshit you put in the show to offer a lower price point so the rich peasants have something to buy when all the other work is sold. I went to this Jonas Wood show a couple of years back at Gagosian. Wood is a great artist. The best work at the show was the colored pencil drawings in the back room. The Gagosian space in New York is huge and you gotta fill it up. And drawings like these probably wouldn’t do it. But it really was the best part. Why shouldn’t the drawings be able to be the show? It’d be weird, right, cause people want paintings. It’s programed though a long history of time. Drawings are studies and paintings are the show. I just don’t believe in that stuff. Faith is too important for that mess.
Banks: So you believe your paintings are actually just large drawings?
Mason: I wouldn’t say they aren’t paintings, I’m saying they are closer to drawings.
Banks: Do you think what you are doing is a revival of drawing as a primary medium?
Mason: Revival? I saw a revival once. I used to live on the East side of town. You know, near the Food Lion shopping center - it’s probably been there a long time. Who knows. Long. There was a vacant out-parcel that was probably for a bank before the neighborhood went. In summers a white tent would post up all summer in this lot. Then one day a band would show up with a bunch of folding chairs. Next day you’d see a band playing and a preacher preaching. It was a sight to see. I bet there were 4 people there. Yeah I saw it. Yup that was a revival. I know what it is. yeah, we’re gonna have one of those. Art needs it, we all know it.
Banks: Art needs it? Are you saying art has gotten boring?
Mason: No, I hear a lot of noise and I wanna make music.
Banks: Let’s shift gears a bit. You mentioned architecture earlier, how does architecture relate to the shape paintings? I’m not sure I see it.
Mason: Well, architecture is the study of space. This is interesting because space is not something you typically experience with paintings. Monet understood space. His water Lilly paintings in the Musée de l'Orangerie are more than paintings, they introduce space and architecture. They have structure. There is a feeling you are inside of the paintings or they are surrounding you. Scale is extremely important in architecture, it’s hard to get it right. I believe the same is true in painting. Scale and subject have a relationship too.
Banks: How do you see these ideas showing up in your work?
Mason: They don’t show up, they exist. Right? I hope so.
Banks: Let me say it a different way. Your shape paintings tend to have a better presence at a larger scale. And obviously there aren’t very many collectors who can absorb a 16’ painting in their home collection. Do you feel some sense of responsibility to make work that is in a more practical scale.
Mason: I don’t feel like I have a responsibility, no. Collectors want what they want and they can take it or not. I’m not about to tell somebody what works and what doesn’t in their home. It’s none of my business…
Banks: On Instagram a couple of weeks ago you posted an interesting series of shape paintings which appeared to be multiple panels but seemed to make one big piece. It was compelling work. Perhaps this could be an approach to scale?
Mason: I like it or I wouldn’t have done it. You could be right there. But I don’t know. I can see how it might be more flexible in a space cause you could break it up. It has a modularity to it which… well, good or bad, it’s architecture all over again. It’s not my problem I guess. This week I combined two pieces that were completely unrelated other than they are both shape paintings. You know different colors and lines. Sort of reminded me of Rauschenberg’s Combines but with more discipline. He was a bit messy for me. Discipline is extremely important. What is a world without order. Look at nature - it has a clear structure and order. The lines are clear. Nature has discipline and painting should to, you know.
Banks: That’s interesting, I wouldn’t have connected your work to Rauschenberg.
Mason: I just like the word “Combine”.
Banks: People seem to love the new shape paintings. What happens if people get bored with this series? Will you move on to something else like you have in the past?
Mason: Who am I to tell the future?
Banks: I’m just trying to understand if this is something you see yourself doing for a while.
Mason: I don’t know. I wish I knew how to skateboard. I might just do that. But instead I’ve been running. It’s simple and easier.
Banks: From the outside you seem to be distracted by living, perhaps people will see this as not being committed to your career. You know, collectors are investors and want to invest in an artist who is going somewhere.
Mason: I’m not going anywhere, people shouldn’t have a problem with that.
Banks: Do you socialize much with galleries or collectors? You know it seems there is an expectation for artists to engage in the space.
Mason: I spend a lot of time near the Carolina coast. It’s hard to get to. You gotta get in a boat and ride through the marsh about 2 miles and the skeeters are bad down here. Boats terrible, been looking for a new one but it’s hard to find a glass bottom boat, I like to see the fish, know where I am. Once you get to the dock you gotta pack in to the house another mile before you climb the ladder to the house. Built it up there in the trees so I could see the hurricanes coming. And sometimes it floods. So I don’t get out too much. Sorta stuck here in the sticks most days. Not a bad view though.
Banks: Ok, well… is it hard to balance family with art?
Mason: Not really, I’m around most days. I swear my hand would fall off if I tried to do art all day. I’d be that guy on Happy Gilmore, what’s his name with the wooden hand? Oh yeah, Chubbs. I’d be Chubbs in no time.
Banks: (laugh) Chubbs.
Two years ago you were at the first Marfa Invitational, I believe this is where we first met. I remember we had this interesting conversation about your non-creative pursuits. You seemed very interested in investing. I can’t remember the context but it seemed fascinating cause it seemed like the complete opposite of most artists I talk to. Where does this interest come from?
Mason: Faith. You have to believe in something to know it’s true.
Banks: But how did you learn?
Mason: Took an economics class my freshman year in college and found out I liked it. Kept my ear to the ground. Met a friend on the tracks one day and taught me everything I know. He was a problem solver and a real genius. Artists solve problems and so do the financial guys. I don’t see the big deal.
Banks: Do you think this makes you a better artist?
Mason: I can’t say.
Banks: Nothing?
Mason: No.
Banks: One last question. What is art doing in you?
Mason: Every day I die a little more.